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Starting problems - 1.6hdi please help!


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#1 Gornalgremlin

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Posted 05 March 2018 - 07:57 AM

I bought a 2006 1.6hdi Xsara Picasso last November and within a few weeks it became progressively harder to start,sometimes I could flatten the battery and nothing, sometimes it would start with a push..
I had a diagnostic done which brought up a fault with the Camshaft sensor, this was replaced and the car started first time for about 5 attempts!
Then I turned the engine off to put Diesel in and it wouldn't start.
I had it towed to a garage who said it was a blocked fuel filter..
Replaced (£100 thank you very much) and it started every time for a couple of hours, parked up for a hospital visit and the problem was back! Eventually started with a push.
I took it to a second garage who took great delight in telling me the first garage were a bunch of amateurs and that the problem was...
Camshaft sensor..
Crankshaft sensor..
Battery..
Starter motor..
(£400 including parts)

I went to collect the car and it started first time!
Drove literally 15 feet and the engine died again.. no amount of pushing turning over would get it to start..
It would run for a few seconds on easy start but would then die.
I also got a warning of immobiliser fault on the dashboard, the garage was baffled and said there was nothing they could think of and towed it back to my home.
Next expert please!
Mobile mechanic took a look, sagely rubbed his chin and said..
ECU is knackered!£500 to repair
I thought about this and wondered if it was worth scrapping the car.. but then I read somewhere that you could replace the ECU, BSI, key aerial and chip which would do the job!
So yesterday I replaced them all myself (£125 from Ebay) still exactly the same.. car turns over, but makes no attempt to fire!
Please help..
I am so close to scrapping it but that would mean I have spent £2,000+ including the car itself and would get at best £200 for scrap.
Is there anything else it could be?

#2 ChrisGibbard

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Posted 05 March 2018 - 09:25 AM

"It would run for a few seconds on easy start but would then die."

 

From that comment I would guess that your problem is fuel related, now that you have changed everything electrical.

Are you actually getting clean fuel through to the injectors? And by clean I mean no water in there. The replacement fuel filter should have done it's job, and probably did for a couple of hours, as you said. Do you have a proper fuel filler cap? Water can get in there also.

Hope you solve your problems, it's not great throwing £2000 at a problem that won't go away.

 


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#3 granpa

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Posted 05 March 2018 - 09:31 AM

12 yr old car, watch the spending against write off value, any 'refunds' from these failed experts !


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#4 Gornalgremlin

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Posted 05 March 2018 - 12:54 PM

12 yr old car, watch the spending against write off value, any 'refunds' from these failed experts !


No refunds so far..
Once I can find the problem, I will be able to go back to them and complain..

#5 Gornalgremlin

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Posted 05 March 2018 - 12:59 PM

"It would run for a few seconds on easy start but would then die."

From that comment I would guess that your problem is fuel related, now that you have changed everything electrical.
Are you actually getting clean fuel through to the injectors? And by clean I mean no water in there. The replacement fuel filter should have done it's job, and probably did for a couple of hours, as you said. Do you have a proper fuel filler cap? Water can get in there also.
Hope you solve your problems, it's not great throwing £2000 at a problem that won't go away.

One of the experts at "garage 2" took a pipe off and said there was fuel getting through.
The fuel cap is original part and seems to be OK
Is there a way to check the fuel supply myself?
I'm not an expert by any means but I will have a go.

#6 Gornalgremlin

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Posted 05 March 2018 - 01:04 PM

Just a thought, if the problem is fuel related, could it be the injector relay?
I have changed most of the electrics so far.

#7 ChrisGibbard

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Posted 05 March 2018 - 01:32 PM

You are back to electric problems once again. I think you are not getting clean fuel through. The expert on this engine on this site is "discv" I would await his comments. But there are plenty of youtube videos of how to check your fuel supply.

 

 


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#8 deuchebleu

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Posted 05 March 2018 - 10:32 PM

The diesel on this car, 1.6HDI is pulled up from the tank by a vacuum generated by the high pressure engine driven pump and not via an in-tank low pressure pump much like older mechanical injection diesels. This means that any slight air leak into the piping between the tank and pump will cause the diesel to run back to the tank and cause difficulty starting. Next time it happens you need to hand prime it. There is a hand primer bulb for this purpose at back under the engine cover. Pull off the engine cover, unclip the primer bulb from its mountings and squeeze it repeatedly. When it starts to get harder to squeeze keep going for about another two minutes. Then try and restart the car. If it fires up then it is most likely a fuel supply problem. This primer bulb normally only needs to be used after changing the fuel filter or running out of fuel so it's not the most robust piece of kit and has been known to crack and cause this problem. If there is any sign of diesel coming out of it when squeezing then it has had it and needs replacing.

John


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#9 Gornalgremlin

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 10:30 AM

The diesel on this car, 1.6HDI is pulled up from the tank by a vacuum generated by the high pressure engine driven pump and not via an in-tank low pressure pump

Thanks for your reply,
There is what I thought to be a fuel pump relay attached to the metal plate that holds the ECU.. is that for the in tank pump or does it do something else?

Edited by Gornalgremlin, 07 March 2018 - 10:35 AM.


#10 stimulator

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 12:10 PM

That could be the servo vacuum pump. Diesel engines do not have any depression in the inlet manifold to use for operating the brake servo so a separate pump is used instead.


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Previous Xsara Picasso 20HDi, C3 SX 1.4HDi, C3 SX 1.6HDI, C4 Picasso 1.6HDi VTR+ EGS 62 Reg C3 Picasso VTR+ 1.6 HDi 92BHP

#11 Gornalgremlin

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 06:32 PM

Update:
I tried using the primer and charged the battery fully, it did try to fire a few times, but only for a brief second. The immobiliser fault appears to have gone but so far no luck in getting it running..

There appears to be a relay on the opposite side of the ECU and Googling the part number it is definitely a glow plug relay, not a fuel pump relay as I first thought.
Part No:Nagares BDL 7/12 9640469680"

I couldn't find any bideos on how to test the fuel specifically on a Picasso.

I really am losing hope now, I feel that it is something simple but have no idea what..

Couple of questions..
1) Because the car ran perfectly for a week after I bought it, could the person I bought it from have done something to make it run temporarily in order to sell it knowing it would break down again eventually?
2) The guy at Garage 2 said he thought he could faintly smell petrol in the fuel, what effect would that have on starting, could the seller have put petrol in at some point and this is causing the problems now?

Edited by Gornalgremlin, 07 March 2018 - 06:35 PM.


#12 Gornalgremlin

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 11:30 PM

Can anyone advise the best procedure to test the fuel supply?
Will I need to take the tank out?

#13 ArthurM

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 07:38 PM

Hi. Regarding your issue with possible petrol being put in your car, the simple answer is yes, it  could be your problem. Try a Google search for petrol being put in a diesel. My guess is that a few cars have been sold quickly having had petrol put in a diesel.


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#14 ChrisGibbard

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 11:17 PM

Not wishing to state the obvious, but if some-one can smell petrol in diesel, then his nose is a lot better than mine. Because diesel stinks.

Try draining the fuel tank, and see what is in there. You may just have a horrible load of rust. Petrol will float on diesel and water should float on both. I think! Please some-one correct me if I am wrong.

I still believe you have a fuel problem, not an electrical one.


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#15 Gornalgremlin

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 08:34 PM

I had another mechanic look it over at the weekend and he said immediately that the injectors were shot!
The car was trying to start but not firing correctly, he said it meant that the cylinders were flooding with diesel hence the firing but they were only firing at random which, he said could damage the engine beyond repair.
He suggested new injectors or having mine reconditioned, but to be honest, I don't want to spend any more money on the car now unless it is a guaranteed fix..
I think it's time to cut my losses and scrap it.

#16 Gornalgremlin

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 08:50 PM

You may just have a horrible load of rust.

I think its a plastic fuel tank..
Sounded plastic when I tapped it.

#17 discv

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 01:29 PM

I've watched this topic with interest, hoping that I might see an avenue opening up- but no luck.

And despite the kind endorsement my only expertise is in the bullsh** that garages come out with!

There does not seem to be any logic to the problem.

 

The problem is the 'expert' fitters that you have been talking to. Trust me- when they see a 1.6Hdi it means money for nothing.

 

A couple of observations- there has been little mention of the engine fault light or fault codes- yet sensors have been suspected/changed.

It would seem that the engine runs for a short while after someone has had a poke.

I would expect an over fuelled engine to sound strange when cranking and also to chuck out clouds of white smoke.


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#18 Gornalgremlin

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 03:26 PM

It would seem that the engine runs for a short while after someone has had a poke.

I would expect an over fuelled engine to sound strange when cranking and also to chuck out clouds of white smoke.

 

Thanks for the reply, it does indeed make strange noises when it is trying to start (rattling and clattering) and quite a lot of white smoke.

 

 

 

 



#19 discv

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 04:39 PM

Thanks for the reply, it does indeed make strange noises when it is trying to start (rattling and clattering) and quite a lot of white smoke.

That's still not definitive- the rattling could be hydraulic lifters, and the smoke simply where fuel has built up when not starting.

No MIL light/warning? Have any of your 'mechanics' come up with fault codes?

 

I'm struggling to figure injectors (all of them) suddenly wearing out.


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#20 granpa

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 06:19 PM

Last time I experienced such noises it was hydraulic tappets on a diesel escort van, long time ago