Jump to content


Photo

1.6 Hdi low oil pressure warning


  • Please log in to reply
18 replies to this topic

#1 discv

discv

    1.8 HDI Exclusive

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 900 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London UK

Posted 03 September 2017 - 04:02 PM

Thought it might be useful to share my findings as they come to light.

To recap- having recently bought this car it drove for a month with no sign of any problems, till the low oil pressure came up.

 

The main thing I have learnt to date is that I should have lifted the plastic engine cover and shone a torch around the base of the injectors. I would have seen seeping engine oil, some still liquid and some baked solid. This is a cast iron guarantee that the problems I have since found are sitting there.

 

I am still dismantling- but have uncovered;

 

On removing the sump the oil pickup/strainer was badly blocked up. The pickup had to be cut off because the torx screws are too small and cannot cope with the locktite used in assembly. I was lucky and with mole grips managed to ease the screws out- but I'm sure they were on the point of shearing.

 

By this stage I had seen evidence of the full service history of this 66k mile car. The quality of work carried out by main stealers and independants alike was/is nothing short of criminal.

 

Next stage was to strip and inspect the turbo. It is serviceable.

 

The injectors are out. All have the top oil seal totally disintegrated. All have the bottom copper seal blowing by. One so badly I'm not sure the bottom seal remains.

 

I have no choice now but to lift the head. If there is any chance of this lump running again the head will have to be cleaned and kissed by an engineering outfit, but I'm not sure that any remain round here.

 

The only good news is that I have not spent a penny yet. Many hours of sweat and toil though- and still a long way to go.


  • gray likes this

C4 Grand Picasso 1.6 HDi 16V FAP/DPFS 110, -Auto (DV6 - 80kW) (C4) (DT) (2008)

 


#2 ChrisGibbard

ChrisGibbard

    1.8 HDI Exclusive

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 502 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Alton, Hampshire

Posted 05 September 2017 - 10:10 PM

Mate, are you sure this has only done 66k, because it doesn't sound like it has!



#3 discv

discv

    1.8 HDI Exclusive

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 900 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London UK

Posted 06 September 2017 - 11:03 AM

Mate, are you sure this has only done 66k, because it doesn't sound like it has!

I agree it sounds odd- but it all checked out with a paid for full history check.

As I pick my way into this engine it is apparent that I have inherited the combination of disgraceful work by 'mechanics', and an engineering design that does not have any tolerance.

By that I mean that every nut, bolt and stud has been selected at an absolute minimum specification. The result is that a single failure, in this case 1 or 2 copper sealing washers, will have a domino affect through the whole unit.


C4 Grand Picasso 1.6 HDi 16V FAP/DPFS 110, -Auto (DV6 - 80kW) (C4) (DT) (2008)

 


#4 discv

discv

    1.8 HDI Exclusive

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 900 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London UK

Posted 06 September 2017 - 11:43 AM

Just as an example of the standard of workmanship, I investigated a noise coming from the steering.

The car had a front spring replaced by Kwik Fit shortly before I bought it.

 

 

 

 

Item 3, the housing in which the front spring locates- was completely missing.


C4 Grand Picasso 1.6 HDi 16V FAP/DPFS 110, -Auto (DV6 - 80kW) (C4) (DT) (2008)

 


#5 ChrisGibbard

ChrisGibbard

    1.8 HDI Exclusive

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 502 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Alton, Hampshire

Posted 06 September 2017 - 03:08 PM

You can't get better than a Kwik-Fit fitter !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 



#6 discv

discv

    1.8 HDI Exclusive

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 900 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London UK

Posted 02 October 2017 - 04:48 PM

A progress report that may be of interest to 1.6 Hdi 16v owners/buyers.

 

It's been slow going- this engine type should never have left the drawing board. It has zero redundancy built in.

 

The hard carbon grains in the oil have also destroyed the cams and cam carrier rack. The cam bearings are machine directly into the cam carrier- so no form of repair is possible.

 

But what I have learnt is that all the signs were there from square one.

 

As we know, the problem starts with leaking copper injector seals. The hot gases then destroy the rubber seals at the top of the injector. Without this seal in place and doing its job, this is the point at which the hot gas and oil meet up. Some of the carbon remains around the base of the injector- and can easily be seen by removing the plastic engine cover.

(If you do see hardened carbon deposits- walk,  no run.) And some of the smaller carbon bits mix with oil and drain back into the engine.

 

I'm reaching a critical decision point. On a 'normal' engine I would now be having a look at big end/main shells etc. In this case that option is risky- the shells have no locating 'pips'

and without the engine being on a machine shop bench and the necessary special tools to hand, there is a good chance that a con rod will come through the crank case.

 

 


C4 Grand Picasso 1.6 HDi 16V FAP/DPFS 110, -Auto (DV6 - 80kW) (C4) (DT) (2008)

 


#7 discv

discv

    1.8 HDI Exclusive

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 900 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London UK

Posted 27 April 2018 - 11:19 AM

A progress report.

The head came back from the machine shop, but careful inspection showed that the injector seats were not as pretty as I would have liked. So I got a cheap seat cutting set off ebay- and all is now looking good.

 

Haynes caused me major problems. They state that the injector pump and its various brackets need to be removed to get the head on/off.

With the engine in situ this is a major task- and completely false information. The head separates from the pump assy. by removing 2x M6 bolts and 1x 13mm nut and its M8 stud.

This I proved by refitting the pump and brackets prior to dropping the head on.

 

The cams and cam carrier have been stripped, inspected and refitted. The injectors are back in place with all new fixings, seals, copper seating washers etc.

 

Next stop (when the weather allows) is cam belt and pulleys. Then I should be able to spin on the starter to confirm oil pressure ^_^


C4 Grand Picasso 1.6 HDi 16V FAP/DPFS 110, -Auto (DV6 - 80kW) (C4) (DT) (2008)

 


#8 discv

discv

    1.8 HDI Exclusive

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 900 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London UK

Posted 29 May 2018 - 12:36 PM

So now we have taken a few big steps forward.

The engine was spun up on the starter, injectors unplugged, and oil flow confirmed by seeing the turbo return pipe chucking out oil.

Repeated this to try and be sure that I had pressure at the lifters.

 

Crunch time. Injectors plugged back in- and-------

it ran!

 

Bit by bit the run time has been increased. My confidence has taken a bashing- but we are at half an hour ticking over and some gentle revving.

Thermostat is doing its job. No sign (yet) of any problems.

 

It's worth noting that the turbo oil feed has been modified. After much thought I decided to fit a new pipe, unions and inline filter.

The new bottom union ( the inaccessible one) has been modified to accept a larger but very much finer filter. And I mean fine- so fine it is hard to imagine that it would not clog up with the slightest tiny bit of oil contamination.

I concluded that the turbo would stand a better chance with dirty oil rather than no oil. And so I threw the new filter away!

 

 

Now I am down to refitting all the bulkhead plastics etc. then some gentle field trials.

 


C4 Grand Picasso 1.6 HDi 16V FAP/DPFS 110, -Auto (DV6 - 80kW) (C4) (DT) (2008)

 


#9 discv

discv

    1.8 HDI Exclusive

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 900 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London UK

Posted 29 May 2018 - 02:08 PM

The filter to which I refer-

Attached File  DSCN0373.JPG   79.82KB   0 downloads

 

It really is so fine that you can just about detect daylight through it.

To give some perspective, the filter aperture is 28mm long.

So if anyone is really bored, they could start counting then we could put some numbers on this filter!

 

 


C4 Grand Picasso 1.6 HDi 16V FAP/DPFS 110, -Auto (DV6 - 80kW) (C4) (DT) (2008)

 


#10 discv

discv

    1.8 HDI Exclusive

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 900 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London UK

Posted 06 June 2018 - 01:45 PM

Around 50 miles covered now. All is looking good. But it will be some time before my confidence is back in place!

 

I am approaching having to make a decision.

Bear in mind the 2 sayings-'If it aint broke don't fix it' and 'Prevention is better than cure'

These injectors are widely believed to loosen up, possibly allowing the copper seals to leak again.

I managed to find a main dealer mechanic who would talk to me. He reckons that anyone involved with the 1.6 Hdi does not bother with a torque wrench, they just tweak the retaining nuts. But he admitted, from his own experience, that a slight over tweak can shear the mounting pillars.

 

My gut is telling me to evenly loosen the injectors back up. Don't let them move at all. Then evenly re-torque then angle tighten to spec.

My idea is to mark the fixings, in some way, so that I can tell if the injectors have indeed pinched down a little more on the copper seals.

 

Any thoughts or comments?


C4 Grand Picasso 1.6 HDi 16V FAP/DPFS 110, -Auto (DV6 - 80kW) (C4) (DT) (2008)

 


#11 Avon

Avon

    16 LX Member

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 42 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 08 June 2018 - 07:47 AM

I previously had a 1.6 in a Berlingo and thanks to 'tinternet I learned of the problems early. There is a lot of info out there but the basics are to ensure the injectors seal correctly, the correct type and grade oil is used and replaced far more regularly then Citroen advise and that the oil filter is fitted correctly, it is easy to get it wrong which means it won't filter the oil.

 

One thing I never found out was where the oil filter by-pass valve is. In most cars it is part of the filter, so that should it get blocked at least oil will still be circulated even if unfiltered, on the 1.6 the valve must be part of the engine itself and I do wonder if some of these have stuck open meaning the engine and turbo never get filtered oil.

 

Normally copper washers are soft and the initial tightening deforms them to make the seal. As long as they don't loosen I doubt tightening further will help and a stripped thread will be a large problem. I used to check mine by hand at each service and they never loosened, I can imagine some being loose from day one and even with dealer servicing never being checked.

 

When the 1.6 is behaving it is a lovely engine but needs care from day one. Buying a used one is a gamble.

 


2016 C4 Picasso Flair 1.2 Puretech


#12 discv

discv

    1.8 HDI Exclusive

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 900 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London UK

Posted 26 September 2018 - 04:46 PM

Ok, so this rebuild is approaching 1k  since being put back on the road. Did a fully laden, 5 up trip to the coast over last weekend, and all seems good. Mixture of motorway, fast A road and some traffic.

 

So now on to the question that has been troubling me. What do I do about the new injector seals? 

99% of those that have given me a view on this have said 'do not touch them'. But all agree that at some point they will fail.

 

I pondered- then ignored the advice!

Bear in mind that the torque spec. is 4 Nm + 65 degrees.

I found that backing off the torque I could get under the 4 Nm point at around just some 30 degrees undone.

At this point I knew I had proved that the copper seals had 'settled'- and that pressure holding the injectors in place was less than it should be.

I took the torque back up to 4Nm, and then wound on the +65 degrees in stages.

 

I also noted that the total torque (4MN+65 degrees) was around the 14 Nm mark. This could be useful info. for a quick tighten up guide.

 

Please remember that I cannot recommend the above procedure and that I was advised not to do it.

But in my own tiny mind I'm happy that I may have extended the time before injector seal failure.

Time will tell- and I will continue to update.


C4 Grand Picasso 1.6 HDi 16V FAP/DPFS 110, -Auto (DV6 - 80kW) (C4) (DT) (2008)

 


#13 Avon

Avon

    16 LX Member

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 42 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 27 September 2018 - 10:03 AM

From what I gather, the copper seals can relax after a while resulting in them becoming physically loose and as checking them wasn't part of Citroens service procedure the problem was never found until too late.

 

Once tightened correctly, it is easy to check on a regular basis that none have become loose, this can be done by hand using the correct allen key by feel. Obviously it is important that they are not given an extra tweak "just to be sure"!

 


2016 C4 Picasso Flair 1.2 Puretech


#14 discv

discv

    1.8 HDI Exclusive

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 900 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London UK

Posted 27 September 2018 - 11:17 AM

Once tightened correctly, it is easy to check on a regular basis that none have become loose, this can be done by hand using the correct allen key by feel. Obviously it is important that they are not given an extra tweak "just to be sure"!

 

Exactly, but define 'tweak' and 'extra tweak' and 'regular' :mellow: ! That is why I gave the torque required. The big danger is shearing the stud/s that hold the injectors.  If they let go chances are it will be under the surface in the smaller diameter section. Overall I favour my approach- back off the torque, but only to the point that ensures the injector does not move.


C4 Grand Picasso 1.6 HDi 16V FAP/DPFS 110, -Auto (DV6 - 80kW) (C4) (DT) (2008)

 


#15 granpa

granpa

    started with this beauty in '02 now got white c4 pic

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,265 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West Yorkshire
  • Interests:winding down and cruising to avoid my grown up kids who have diy jobs for me

Posted 27 September 2018 - 06:54 PM

When I had the 1725 Austin Princess, remember them ?, it was critical how the head bolts were torqued and the exact setting adhered to, having just had the warped aluminium head skimmed I slightly over torqued the bolts to stop another overheat and warp, within a short time 4 of the headbolts had snapped.

In my book 'tweak' is a quick pull on the spanner, allen key etc by hand, or knock with the heel of the hand,  'extra tweak' is a single knock with the 2lb hammer on the spanner


Edited by granpa, 27 September 2018 - 06:55 PM.

  • discv likes this

#16 discv

discv

    1.8 HDI Exclusive

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 900 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London UK

Posted 28 September 2018 - 10:26 AM

Beautifully defined granpa. I think all forums should ditch ft/lbs and Nm etc and stick to 'tweak' and 'extra tweak' 


C4 Grand Picasso 1.6 HDi 16V FAP/DPFS 110, -Auto (DV6 - 80kW) (C4) (DT) (2008)

 


#17 Marvin

Marvin

    Skoda Yeti SE Greenline II, 1.6TDi, Steel Grey

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 889 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 28 September 2018 - 07:04 PM

Not forgetting the ultra-tweak  (club hammer) and the hyper-tweak (sledge-hammer)



"Life? Don't talk to me about life....."


#18 granpa

granpa

    started with this beauty in '02 now got white c4 pic

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,265 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West Yorkshire
  • Interests:winding down and cruising to avoid my grown up kids who have diy jobs for me

Posted 28 September 2018 - 07:40 PM

What term for stilsons and a length of scaffold pole



#19 Marvin

Marvin

    Skoda Yeti SE Greenline II, 1.6TDi, Steel Grey

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 889 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 29 September 2018 - 10:26 AM

What term for stilsons and a length of scaffold pole

 

"TWANG!!!"  Oh, B*GG*R!



"Life? Don't talk to me about life....."