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P1161 and P1153 Error (Throttle?)


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#1 Gondorian

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 02:18 PM

Hi, everyone, I'm back after a long absence because I need your insights again. Please advise!
 
 
Car: 2.0 Petrol Automatic 2003 (53 plate) Xsara Picasso
Miles: 169,000
Location: Cambridge
Driver: Pretty much clueless ;)
Breakdown Assistance: AA
 
 
Background:
 
On Christmas Eve, I drove 150 miles up the country with no issues, stopped to drop some things off at relative's, and then went to supermarket (approx 1 mile away).  When leaving supermarket, I got ENGINE FAULT on the dashboard and the K light lit up.  When I tried to drive it, it seemed stuck in a high gear with no acceleration, and I couldn't manually change gear either (or at least it didn't seem like I could).  My foot was all the way down on the pedal and nothing.  I turned it off for a while then tried again.  The ENGINE FAULT was still there, but after reversing out, I had acceleration again and car drove fine back to relative's house.  Tried the car Boxing Day and still the same light was on.  Tried it the following day and the light was gone and the car drove fine.
 
I've since done about 300 miles in it, but it happened again this morning, exactly the same.  I took a short trip to drop kids off at school (about 1 mile away).  When I went to start up the car, I got the ENGINE FAULT and almost no acceleration.  Tried off and on again, but still the error and only about 7mph possible so I drove it to a safe place to park at least 1/4 miles from home (don't have AA Homestart!).  Phoned the AA, told them I didn't think it was safe to drive and they came out and diagnosed the error codes.
 
 
The Error Codes:  P1153 (Engine Control Module) and P1161 (Throttle Position Control Coherence).
 
I've looked this up on Google and found this: http://citroenc3owne...-body-t579.html
 
 
Before I start attempting so DIY, do you have any thoughts on this?


#2 Gondorian

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 12:13 PM

No one have any ideas?

 

I'd really appreciate it if someone direct me to where I should be checking these plugs/connections that could be faulty, including where the ECU is located, so I can check the plugs for water/coolant leakage?  I've spent a long time google searching and not found anything telling me exactly where to be looking on my car for these things.

 

 

More info on the issue from this morning:

 

When I went to start the car this morning, it actually didn't start, so I turned it off.  Then I tried again and it started, but accelerator pedal would not cause any revs, so I turned it off.  Then I tried again and the accelerator would cause revs and I drove it to work!  The ENGINE FAULT message came up at first and the K light stayed on the whole journey.  When I arrived at work, I turned it off and on again and the ENGINE FAULT was still there but the accelerator still managed some revs.  I suppose once the fault has occurred, it stays on the system until cleared?

 

Given how intermittent this is, I'm thinking wiring/leakage sounds possible.  If an actual part needed replacing, it just wouldn't work at all, right?  It drove just fine for the 17 miles to work.



#3 Gondorian

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 01:23 PM

It feels like I am talking to a brick wall, but I will continue giving updates anyway, so when some poor soul finds this on google one day and there is a solution somewhere near the bottom of this thread (hopefully) then they will have lots of info to help them...

 

 

Didn't take the car anywhere yesterday.

 

Started it up this morning and all worked fine, but the warning light and ENGINE FAULT was still there.  I drove it to work with no issues.

 

At this point, I'm just going to assume dodgy electrics are causing occasional throttle failure on start-up and the car is safe to drive if the throttle works at any point after ignition.



#4 gray

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 03:08 PM

Possible Throttle Potentiometer/Connector(s) ?

 

I had a Fiat which was fly by wire, and the throttle potentiometer started failing, with occasional loss of power and engine management light coming on - once it knew where it was, then the power would surge back again !

The Throttle Coherence fault would seem to point to the ECU not knowing where the Accelerator Pedal is positoned (throttle position).  I don't know where the throttle is but the ECU on mine is a Big square thing in the RHS of the engine bay, near where you'd imagine the battery to be ! (1.6 2001 Petrol)

 

If it this - then hopefully it's not a 10 Hr job like the Fiat was supposed to be !



#5 Gondorian

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 03:48 PM

Possible Throttle Potentiometer/Connector(s) ?

 

I had a Fiat which was fly by wire, and the throttle potentiometer started failing, with occasional loss of power and engine management light coming on - once it knew where it was, then the power would surge back again !

The Throttle Coherence fault would seem to point to the ECU not knowing where the Accelerator Pedal is positoned (throttle position).  I don't know where the throttle is but the ECU on mine is a Big square thing in the RHS of the engine bay, near where you'd imagine the battery to be ! (1.6 2001 Petrol)

 

If it this - then hopefully it's not a 10 Hr job like the Fiat was supposed to be !

 

Thanks for this info.

 

Could the vast amount of rubbish on the floor of my car, which might have spread upwards behind the accelerator pedal caused it to get confused?

 

I cleared it all out and moved the the floor mat back to sane position on Tuesday, but don't think I retried the car after doing so.  (I was cleaning it up in case a friend offered to take a look!)  Maybe it was initially confused on Wednesday and then had fixed/recalibrated itself by the 3rd try.  It has worked fine for 5 starts since then, including a try I just did after double-checking there was nothing obstructing the accelerator pedal just now.  The warning light and ENGINE FAULT have gone away on this most recent try too.

 

Having learned a bit more about drive-by-wire now, I can see how this could be a plausible explanation for what has happened.  I will keep people updated on whether the light comes back in future and whether I have any more accelerator issues.  Fingers crossed!



#6 Gondorian

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 03:50 PM

From here: http://www.racq.com....s/drive-by-wire

 

"Drive by wire systems are designed to always fail safe meaning that the engine will always return to idle or near idle if a fault develops."

 

That's exactly what I experienced.



#7 Gondorian

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 11:58 AM

Latest update:

 

Sadly, it was wishful thinking on my part that a messy footwell interfering with the pedal was at fault.  I had 6 trouble-free no-warning-light journeys until I tried to leave for work this morning.  Then the car would not start for 3 tries (warning light came on after first one).  Then it started, but accelerator would not rev.  Then I tried again and it started and it did rev and I drove to work with the warning light on again.

 

I think I've found where to look for dodgy electrical connections now (rip out the underside of the dash above the driver footwell) so I'll do that later.  I'll also locate the ECU if it's not raining and have a look at that.



#8 tomron

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 02:03 PM

Gondorian,

 

I too have a 2.0 Lt auto, 53model.  The problems that you seem to be having may stem from the main ECU connection plug.  This is very prone to water ingress, a design fault in my opinion.  There are many small pins that form part of the whole connection, and these have been found to corrode due to water getting into the plug.

The ECU is under the bonnet, right hand side, at the top.  You will see a plastic "boot" that sits on the top with 3 main cables going into it, and usually a tie holding the boot end to the cables.  I must say that I had my garage check mine out, but they found it swimming with green water, and three pins very badly corroded.  They refurbished (built up) the pins with solder and refitted the cleaned plug, and reset the engine faults.  So far it has cured the problems that I had with various sensors, and runs fine.  They stressed that if I wanted to look at the plug, then disconnect and reconnect properly, as the manual says.  I have since made my own cover over the original one as extra protection.  Don't know if this helps you at all, but worth a look.

 

    Tomron   



#9 Gondorian

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 03:52 PM

Hi Tomron,

 

Thanks so much for the reply.

 

Do you think most garages would be up to the work performed by yours?

 

When you say "manual" here, do you mean the owner's manual?

 

They stressed that if I wanted to look at the plug, then disconnect and reconnect properly, as the manual says.

 

I've not seen a reference to the ECU in there.  Does the battery need to be disconnected before doing it? 

 

Thanks again. I will let you know how I get on.



#10 tomron

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 04:17 PM

Gondorian,

 

If you leave the battery connected, then there is a small possibility of a spike in the system when you reconnect, and that could damage the whole lot.  The manual is any like Haynes, but if you read the technical section on this forum, then that tells you how to un-do and re-do the battery connection with safety in mind.

As for a garage to use, mine is a Peugeot & Citroen dealer, that have the full diagnostic equipment, and charged £ 115.20 inc. vat. to complete the job.  They are not a Citroen Main dealer, locally, they are **** .

For reference, Google "problems with Picasso ECU", and you will find all about water in it, and other fixes.

 

    Tomron



#11 tomron

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 04:22 PM

Mr.G,    The technical section is the FAQ section, page 1.  HTH.